| James: |
Let's see if we can't all join together and find a better place this
evening. Let me set the scene for you. Authorities in East Texas are
desperately trying to avoid another WACO in a standoff with a
self-styled militia. Colonel John Joe Gray is the boss. He has barricaded
himself with 16 other people, including 7 children in a compound with no
power, but an arsenal of guns and has threatened to die before he gives
himself up.
A former member of the Embassy of Heaven Church, it was their radical
views on disobedience to the State that originally attracted him to this
religious sect. Their leader is Pastor Paul Revere and he joins me now
live from the Kingdom of Heaven, apparently surrounded by Oregon. Good
Evening to you. |
| Pastor: |
Good Evening. How are you James? |
| James: |
I'm very well. Thank you very much in deed. It is so lovely of you to
join us this evening on our little get together in the United Kingdom. |
| Pastor: |
What does the Kingdom of Heaven have to do with sports? |
| James: |
Like so many things, this particular show is in itself a sport. You
know how sports stations have to have shows which don't particularly
talk about sports. |
| Pastor: |
It reminds me of the original days when my companions were being
thrown before the lions for sport. |
| James: |
Well, it is a very similar sort of thing, but, of course, not here.
Pastor Paul we are here seeking truth and justice for all on this show.
My engineer tells me when you answer the phone you answer the phone,
the Kingdom of Heaven or the Embassy of Heaven. |
| Pastor: |
Yes, we answer Embassy of Heaven for the Kingdom of Heaven. |
| James: |
The only thing that slightly worries me here, Pastor, is that Heaven
is in Oregon, which is in the United States and that means that the rest
of us have got to travel. |
| Pastor: |
No, no, that is not true at all. Where is the Kingdom of Heaven? |
| James: |
I don't know, where is it? |
| Pastor: |
It is within you, as all government is. And the earth is the Lord's
and the fullness thereof so, therefore, you can literally be anywhere
physically, and still be in the government of God. |
| James: |
May I invite my audience here this evening if they would like to join
with us via the Internet because you have your own website. |
| Pastor: |
Yes, it is at www.EmbassyOfHeaven.com. |
| James: |
Before we talk a bit more about your Church and your beliefs, Paul,
are you concerned about this John Joe Gray who is saying it is your
beliefs that have made him do what he is doing at the moment. |
| Pastor: |
That is an interesting statement and I think rather than make such a
statement you should ask us first on whether he is doing what we preach. |
| James: |
I guess I could do that. Let me ask you first, is he actually holed up
in this place with 16 other people including his grandchildren and
threatening to kill everybody before he comes out? |
| Pastor: |
Right now, as far as we know, and I have not been able to personally
talk with them either, there are approximately 16 people on John Joe
Gray's private property. There are children, men and women. They are not
technically holed up, they are simply there. They do have arms and they
have stated that if any of the secular forces come in, they will defend
themselves. |
| James: |
Which is against the law. |
| Pastor: |
I hate the word "against the law" because we really want to
do the will of God-- |
| James: |
God doesn't actually want the grandchildren killed or anyone there. He
doesn't want the policeman killed. God would rather everyone live
together, surely. |
| Pastor: |
God doesn't want little unborn babies to be cut and killed either and
he didn't want, during the time of Moses, that all the children be
killed then or during the time of Jesus, but sometimes that is the sin
of man and man pays for his sins.
Let's get back to John Joe Gray. I know what you are after. You are
after whether John Joe Gray is doing what would be expected in the
Kingdom of Heaven. Am I correct? |
| James: |
I might have asked that question later, but seeing you brought it up,
why don't you answer it. |
| Pastor: |
For us, no, John Joe Gray is not doing as we believe in the Kingdom of
Heaven. Let me qualify it. John Joe Gray has known from the beginning
that the Embassy of Heaven does not preach violence against any man and
John Joe Gray has recently denounced being a member of the Embassy of
Heaven under the Kingdom of Heaven. |
| James: |
Lucky for you. |
| Pastor: |
Yeah, it makes our job easy. |
| James: |
Listen, Joe or John Joe-- |
| Pastor: |
He goes by Joe Gray. |
| James: |
Okay. Joe Gray, he is a nasty piece of work and he needs to be dealt
with. |
| Pastor: |
So do the secular forces. They need to be dealt with, too, and that is
where the Embassy of Heaven comes in. |
| James: |
Right. Let's come to that. I've got in front of me the first page of
your website and it says, "Press on speaker for a 2-minute
announcement." If I did that, what would I hear? |
| Pastor: |
Is this with Billy Graham? |
| James: |
I don't know. It says with your host Pastor Paul Revere with his guest
Ambassador Glen Stoll. |
| Pastor: |
Okay, that is a different one. The one I am thinking of on the
homepage is a picture of Billy Graham on the left hand near the top.
That one I can quote almost verbatim.
Billy Graham was being interviewed by David Frost. |
| James: |
Yeah, I know David Frost. |
| Pastor: |
David Frost posted the question to Billy Graham. Billy Graham, for
those who don't know it, is a religious leader in the United States and
he is very well known and he draws a lot of people.
David Frost asked, "Is this a Christian Country?"
Billy Graham's response is, "No, this is not a Christian
country. It never has been. This is a secular country according to its
constitution. It is a place where Christians can live and where
Christians have a voice, but no, this is not a Christian country."
That pretty well sets the stage. If this truly is not a Christian
country, than as a Christian I am not in my home. |
| James: |
Can I play, slightly, the devil's advocate with you here, if you don't
mind Pastor Paul. |
| Pastor: |
I'm surprised you haven't because most media people always want to. Go
ahead. |
| James: |
No, no for obvious reasons I wouldn't do anything nasty in acting like
that. Let us suppose for one moment there is no God because you don't
know whether there is a God. You don't know whether Jesus Christ ever
existed really, do you? |
| Pastor: |
Well, if there were no God, then I would see nothing because there
would be nothing that had been created? |
| James: |
How do you mean you would see nothing? |
| Pastor: |
I wouldn't even be here. None of us would be here. None of us could
talk or speak or have will because we are a product of creation.
Therefore if there is no God, there is no creation. |
| James: |
So you believe there is a God. |
| Pastor: |
There has to be or I wouldn't be here talking to you. |
| James: |
But you might be wrong, mighten you? |
| Pastor: |
No-- |
| James: |
You could have existed because of a freak of nature and this lump of
rock floating around in the universe suddenly got you all the right bits
and pieces for life to exist. |
| Pastor: |
Where did all this stuff come from? There has to be a Creator? |
| James: |
You don't believe it could just have happened? |
| Pastor: |
No, that's an impossibility. There has to be a Creator. |
| James: |
Is this Creator a good person or a bad person because reading some of
the stuff you have I think this person is a bit nasty. |
| Pastor: |
Well, the Creator as we know it, and recorded in the Holy Scriptures
by men is a Creator who has made good decisions and bad decisions. At
one point he repented that he even made man. And there was a time,
especially in the Old Testament, this Creator instructed his people to
go out and kill people as John Joe Gray has referenced as his reason for
taking up the sword. And so this God, this Almighty, this awesome God
has tried certain methods and He has found out that they don't work. |
| James: |
Right. I'm thinking I am with you so far, but-- |
| Pastor: |
Then He sends Jesus Christ. He finds the answer. He finds a better
method by which He can hopefully bring in His will and have men live
according to that will. |
| James: |
Let us suppose for one moment that I wish to become a member of the
Embassy of Heaven or the Kingdom of Heaven surrounded by Oregon. |
| Pastor: |
It is actually just the Kingdom of Heaven. |
| James: |
Okay. What would I have to do to become a member of your Church that I
am probably not already doing? |
| Pastor: |
Hold on just a second. I'll get the statement that one would sign. |
| James: |
I find that quite strange, Paul, because I would imagine that you
would know off the top of your head. |
| Pastor: |
I don't have a photographic memory and I do have to resort to writing
once in awhile. Here is what we require. It is a statement that says:
I declare that I am reborn as a citizen of the Kingdom of Heaven.
I give my allegiance to Jesus Christ the Son of God. I will love one
another as He has commanded. I renounce all allegiance and fidelity to
every foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty whatsoever and to
the world itself.
End of Statement. |
| James: |
Hang on. First of all, that is a little upsetting because I don't know
whether you realize this but her royal majesty the queen of Britain
actually does listen to this show. |
| Pastor: |
Yes, sir. If she is of Jesus Christ, we don't have a problem do we? |
| James: |
Alright. Well, she is head of the church of England. |
| Pastor: |
And if the church of England is a ministry under the Kingdom of Heaven,
we don't have a problem do we? |
| James: |
Aw - alright. Okay. I felt that the church of England is the church in
the world. |
| Pastor: |
No, the Church is the congregation or the body of Christ, whomever it
makes up. |
| James: |
Now you don't believe that man's laws, in other words the laws of the
country that you happen to live in, are actually applicable to those
people who are born again, do you? |
| Pastor: |
If it is of secular origin, then that is correct. No, the secular have
no say over the ecclesiastical body of Christ. |
| James: |
So you don't have any necessity, for instance, to have a driving
license? |
| Pastor: |
That is correct because I was commanded to travel for purposes of the
Great Commission and, therefore, as a commandment I have the duty to
travel and I do not seek out licensure from secular forces in order to do
the will of God. |
| James: |
What about if you feel the will of God is such but you do not have the
money to do it, what happens then? |
| Pastor: |
I'm not sure where you are going? |
| James: |
For instance, if God commanded you to take the train and you didn't have
the money for the ticket and these people were stopping you at the barrier
and saying, "I'm sorry, you can't come on here without a
ticket," you wouldn't feel very pleased toward them, would you? |
| Pastor: |
Well, see God will supply all our needs, whatever it might be and if He
commands something, he will provide it in the form necessary to accomplish
the mission. And those who do not receive those messengers, then it is
their problem, not ours. |
| James: |
Can I just move on while we are talking, Pastor, to home life, marriage,
and stuff like that because I see from your website some children's
drawings. |
| Pastor: |
Yes. |
| James: |
There is one here about fornication. Let me read it and maybe you can
explain the idea behind it. Joe and Lucy have sexual intercourse. Because
neither Joe nor Lucy have ever been married, they commit the sin of
fornication. |
| Pastor: |
That is correct. The reason is because fornication by definition is the
act of [sexual] intercourse without being married. In other words it is
executed by unmarried individuals. |
| James: |
So how does that leave those of us who are maybe unmarried as far as
having sex is concerned? |
| Pastor: |
Then you commit fornication. Period. |
| James: |
But if I am just having sex with somebody and we both agree to do it, I
am really not doing any harm, surely? |
| Pastor: |
Then you are fornicating. That is its definition. |
| James: |
That is harsh. |
| Pastor: |
No, it's not harsh. It's just a definition. Okay, let's come back,
James. It is harsh because in a passage by Apostle Paul, he declares that
fornicators shall not inherit the kingdom of God. |
| James: |
So there is no sexual pleasures in the Kingdom of God. |
| Pastor: |
I wouldn't say that. I am married and I am involved in lawful sex with
my wife. I have lawful children and I raise Godly seed so therefore there
is pleasure. But you see, here is what the world does, James. The world
seeks after pleasures first, rather than the will of God. But if we seek
out the will of God first, then He will also give us pleasure. |
| James: |
Okay, if I do what God wants according to the laws of God, then I am
alright to go on and do all the other things afterward. |
| Pastor: |
That is correct. It is like you put the horse in front of the cart
instead of the cart in front of the horse. |
| James: |
Does your Church, because there are so many different churches, I want
you to know, Paul, that I am continually seeking knowledge and
understanding of everything. |
| Pastor: |
Okay. |
| James: |
If I were to share with you the fact that I am gay, would that preclude
me from getting into the Kingdom of Heaven? |
| Pastor: |
The best way to answer that, James, is that I have a cousin who is a
lesbian and is what you would call "gay" and, of course, that
word has been modified. It used to be "happy men" but now it is
those who do perverted acts with their own sex. Anyway, the scripture says
the same thing. We don't preclude them from our fellowship because we are
to sit with the sinners and hopefully bring them to repentance. But if
they are unrepentant, then they cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven. |
| James: |
So, it would be okay to be a lesbian and get into the Kingdom of Heaven. |
| Pastor: |
No, here is First Corinthians, Chapter 6, verses 9 and 10:
No ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the
Kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor
adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor
thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers; nor extortioners,
shall inherit the kingdom of God.
So, no, their souls are at risk. And we pray and want to work with them
to repentance so that they can also receive the promised Kingdom of Heaven. |
| James: |
Alright, Paul, work with me here slightly. What is this nonsense that
God has continually with worrying about sex. I mean it seems to be at the
top of His list of things you shouldn't do. Why, when it makes people
happy, whichever way you do it. Why does God have such a problem with
this? |
| Pastor: |
Would you want to be a child of a couple people who only want happiness
of the joy of sex and have no interest in the rearing of Godly children,
having Godly offspring?
God is the author of Godly family. He is the one that put the family
together and wants us to have Godly offspring. It is also a question of
loyalty and allegiance and a moral living style. We are not talking about
just simply doing what the kids today say, "Hey, let's party. Let's
fight for the right to party." And what becomes of their end?
Let's take a look at the world today, James. If God does not punish
this world, he owes a major apology to Sodom and Gomorrah. |
| James: |
I wonder sometimes, you know, that so many of these religious
organizations make God out to be such a nasty bee that you wonder whether
you really want to meet him anyway. |
| Pastor: |
If you are a child of hell and you want to party and not help one
another, but are selfish, wouldn't you think that the Father in Heaven is
a nasty dude because he won't let you party in the way you think you ought
to? |
| James: |
Hang on. That is one side of it. But maybe there are people who party
and have the right to party are nice people. Maybe they do good things for
other people. Maybe they are not so terrible just because they enjoy a
little bit of hokey pokey. |
| Pastor: |
I haven't met anyone yet because usually the bottom line is there is
something defective about their thinking if all they want to do is
pleasure. |
| James: |
Maybe we don't want to pleasure all the time, but maybe just once or
twice a day and the rest of the time we spend doing good things and good
works. |
| Pastor: |
Okay. Let's hit it hard, James. Let's go for the jugular. God Wills that
we do not do such things. And that is enough for me. |
| James: |
Continuing, tell me about these strange drawings on the Internet. Some
of them are quite nasty. Some of them are calling children bastards who
have not been brought into the world by married people. And some say here
that if you were to get divorced, then your children would revert to being
bastards. That seems very uncharitable and very unloving. |
| Pastor: |
First of all the children are bastards by definition. If one is a
bastard, are they prohibited from the Kingdom of Heaven? |
| James: |
Well, I don't know. I'm asking you? |
| Pastor: |
I'm not aware that they are. Everyone has the opportunity for repentance
and to enter the promised Kingdom. Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at
hand. That is available to literally anyone and everyone who chooses to go
the way of the Creator. |
| James: |
What happens if somebody in your Church actually steps out of line
slightly, you just kick them out straightaway? What do you do? |
| Pastor: |
Absolutely not. We go according to the principles set up by the Church
under Jesus Christ as the head and first you go one-on-one. You challenge
what they are doing. If they do not hear you, you bring several people in
and challenge it again. And if they don't hear it, then you bring it
before the Church. It is a whole process. Eventually, the ultimate that
the Church can do is excommunication saying, you claim to be Christian.
You are unrepentant. The will of God is plain and clear in this issue and,
therefore, we are going to separate and we are not going to recognize you
any further. |
| James: |
Who is the head of your Church? |
| Pastor: |
The head is Jesus Christ as it is for anyone who claims to be a
Christian. |
| James: |
Okay. Right. Last question. Do you think that if you get a chance to
speak to John Joe Gray the guy that barricaded himself in with a number of
people including seven children and his grandchildren in a compound, they
have an arsenal, they are prepared to fight until the end, for some
strange reason. What do you say to this man? |
| Pastor: |
Okay. First of all, he, by his own words, has declared that he is not a
member of the Church. |
| James: |
No, no, what do you say to this man as a person who says he is doing
these things in the name of-- |
| Pastor: |
In the name of Christ? I would challenge his position. I would say, no,
I do not believe that you are doing this in the name of Jesus Christ. |
| James: |
Because he uses your Church, the Embassy of Heaven Church, because of
your beliefs that you do not need to obey the laws of man over the laws of
God. He says that means he can do as he wishes and shouldn't have to be interfered
with by people who are there like police or politicians or whoever are
saying that he should be obeying the laws of the country. |
| Pastor: |
You are coming very close to what the real issues are. In 1998, John Joe
Gray sought out the Embassy of Heaven to assist him in separating from the
Kingdom of this world, also known as the secular forces. That he did do.
That we have record of. That we have posted on the Embassy of Heaven site
at one of the pages under John Joe Gray. That is a matter of record.
John Joe Gray since then has declared that he is not a member of this
Church and, therefore, is not subject to the beliefs that we hold. So now
we have an individual who has technically confused the whole world and the
Church, too. Here he is holed up, ready to kill somebody and he is using
text out of the Old Testament where God did have His people kill people.
He is using that text as justification for defending his wife, his
children, his lands and even his own very life, by the instrument of
carnal weapons. If he was to choose any passage out of the New Testament,
he would find no support for such an act. In fact, anybody who has read
their scripture knows that in the New Testament there is not one
reference of somebody dying at the hands of a Christian, either good or
evil. |
| James: |
Pastor, one last word. I must go for the news. He could be listening to
this because he has access to the Internet or something. What would you
say to him? Give up. Come out. Stop behaving like this? |
| Pastor: |
Absolutely not, I'd say, John Joe Gray, our prayers are for you.
However, as he and I understand, his method is not to be used. I do know a
method by which he can separate from the world. It is not to take up
carnal weapons, but we as Christians have the duty to flee. When the hour
of desolation is upon us, we are to flee and that would be his course. |
| James: |
Where would he flee to? |
| Pastor: |
That is the trouble. Today the world is all around us.
Luke 9:56 says:
The Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.
That would be my challenge. John Joe Gray, what are you doing to save
men's lives? |
| James: |
Does John Joe Gray have a seat in the Kingdom of Heaven at this moment
or not? |
| Pastor: |
Again, you are asking for my personal judgment. The judgment is with the
Heavenly Father. He may be being used. I know Judas was used and did God's
will, though most of us would say, hey, he turned over the Son of man to
the secular forces. |
| James: |
We're a little late for the news, but I think it was important to clear
up these things. We want to thank Pastor Revere for being our guest today. |
